Tuesday, May 29, 2007

The Great Debate...repost

I can't wait to get this off my chest...I was having a friendly, yet debate driven conversation with a good friend of mine and I just had to write about it. For the purpose of not making it too lengthy, I will just highlight my point and her point and we will see if men and women really think so differently.

Focus of the debate:Strippers and Prostitutes..Lord knows how we got on that! Probably relating to the blog I recently wrote about a Maury show I watched.

Anywhoooo..here's the short of it. She feels that the women that are prostitutes have no self love, self-esteem and don't know what they doing...based on their maturity level or what they have been exposed to. If i understood her correctly, she feels that some women are trapped because they just don't know any better. She alluded to the fact that counseling perhaps should be the approach rather than blasting them. Therapy!

ok...we really were on it weren't we? Therapy????

My point: Unless they are mentally incapable of making decisions on their own, they know exactly what they are doing and accepting their lifestyle....also just because a person perhaps was shown little love, they recognize it is so many other facets of life having nothing to do with sex, pimps, or money. We are not always products of our environments. I know some hoes and some strippers that turn tricks and some that don't! I have actually asked some of them what brought them to where they were in life. It wasn't always the runaway, sexually abusive teen that flees for her life and some pimps showed her some love crap that is glorified on tv....but real talk IE:"I f**k my man and he pays me by buying me things or giving me what I want, why wouldn't I get money from anybody I lay up with" or "my grandmother always told me, no woman has to ever be broke".....I was educated on the perception. Old school women teach other younger women that "if you got it...flaunt it"

Another friend of her's said that there is no difference between a stripper and a prostitute...based on her character, I'm sure that she vehemently argued him down on the difference. Not all strippers turn tricks to keep it simple...I said "yeah but you do have lots of them that do" Stripper's atleast hustle to get their own money!

I never claim to be an expert in psychology, but my life's experiences has taught me that eveyone has Choices. God's gift to every person is "free will"!!! We can allow ourselves to be subjugated by others, but we are still in control of giving it away. Fact remains, it is our choice ultimately!


nic said...

Hey DC,
I didn't finish reading your post yet. I just wanted to be the first person to comment, since you got me last time. I'll be back though :)

nic said...

I don’t know. This is a tough one. As far as strippers and prostitutes go, the sob story of “My daddy used to touch me” etc, etc, is kinda’ played out. Now I don’t mean to sound uber-insensitive. I know that there are a lot of women that got dragged into those lifestyles because of family issues. All I’m saying is that I think that now-a-days, a lot of these “women” out here are just greedy. A lot of them just like to have the newest s***. Like it really means something in the scheme of life. These would be the ones who think that they ARE loving themselves. I don’t know if therapy would even help. Good post. It made me think.


Sugar said...

D.C., I'd have to say I agree with your girl on the prostitute thing. Everybody indeed has choices, but when people make "bad" choices, there's an underlying reason for that. I don't think any little girl grows up hoping to become a stripper or a prostitute or a whore. I just don't believe it. Somewhere along the way, she was made to believe that this was a viable option. Whether it be something someone said to her...or didn't say...something someone did to her...or didn't do, etc.

It's really a matter of Cause and Effect. Certainly there are some women who consistently make bad choices, but all of that too goes back to a mental and emotional root. Any woman who will allow a man to basically take a crap on her all for the sake of being thrown a few dollars has some mental and emotional issues.

Same for a man who will do that and who will also resort to a life of crime and other tawdry things. Mental and emotional illness is a big deal and black folks don't like to talk about it, but the sooner we do and start getting people some help, there will always be whores, strippers, drug dealers and the like.

Nobody with a healthy outlook on themself or life is going to do the things that people in that group decide to do.

Anonymous said...

DC, I side with you. Life is a series of choices. All respect to those that get involved in different situations because of the psychological impact of traumatic experiences, but choice is choice. Choose to or choose not to.

I grew up in a relatively sheltered enviroment. I was a military brat. I used to wonder how men AND women found themselves pursuing that vocation. What were their stories? Lo and behold, I was with my girlfriend at the time, still in high school, walking downtown to catch a movie, and we saw one of our classmates down there on the stroll.

I knew her people and her upbringing. At least in her case, she just chose to pursue that lifestyle.

Good post.

Shai said...

I have to agree with Sugar.

dc_speaks said...

wow...excellent excellent comments good people.

Nic..thanks for being first.

Sugar: I appreciate the way that you voiced your opinion. It was an engaging argument indeed.

Soj: I appreciate ya, brah. I just feel like choices determine the outcome and not always circumstances.

Shai....um(lol) thanks for sharing that you agree with sugar. smile.

CapCity said...

hmmmm, i don't really know...the brain is a sensitive organ...

but, sometimes i DO wish I had that kind of moxie to flaunt it like that! LOL! i have a hard time wearing shorts & tank-tops (& i rarely wear either in public)...

nikki said...

this is some booness right here.

there's an assumption being made that everyone is aware of the same choices. there is the assumption that a person is mentally incapable of making decisions if he/she doesn't know what he/she is doing and consciously accepting that lifestyle.

now, not all prostitutes are victims. there are women out there who aren't a part of an underserved community who do it for kicks, for the power that comes with dictating to a guy what her pussy is worth, without all of the gray area that comes with dating a dude and wondering why he hasn't given her the tennis bracelet when she gave him the ass last week.

that said, i think it's ridiculous for ANYONE to assume that ALL prostitutes are 'aware of their choices and decisions and choose to lay down the pussy for penis for a buck or two.'

it's not only ridiculous, it's straight up irresponsible. do you know a prostitute? i know a few and their kids and i'm telling you many of those sistas really BELIEVE this is their only choice. many of them came from households where their moms were prostitutes. many came from environments where women were degraded and abused and told they wouldn't amount to shit. many more still came from backgrounds where they were molested or raped or both. they see prostition/stripping as a way of taking back the control over their bodies that they lost in the moments where they felt helpless during the rape/molestation. there are a whole lot of women who have been molested or raped. in fact, i'll say it right here...i bet everybody here knows at least one chick who has been molested or raped, even if that chick hasn't told you.

and where are they supposed to see the 'other facets of love'? what, at school where the teacher don't give a crap about her problems so long as she turns in her homework on time?

or perhaps she can find it with the grandmother who raised her but tells her "you just like ya momma the whore"

no? maybe she can get it from the the people in the neighborhood who don't have enough time to spare her a glance as they make their ways to their own underpaid overworked gigs, let alone show her some love.

maybe she can turn to television, right? surely she can find that 'multi-faceted' love of which you speak...perhaps on the music videos that make all women look like gyrating the coochie and ta tas around is the only way they get attention or on the sitcoms where black women with degrees and spacious pads in neighborhoods she don't know shit about lament about their white collar boyfriends not wanting to marry them.

or she can always check the dramas where black women barely exist and when they do, they're the college-educated asexual chick with a chip, a husband folk have to assume exists, and no appeal whatsoever to the males in the cast although she does get praise for dimming her shine so folk don't see her as a fully realized person like the white chicks on the shows.

yeah, there's plenty of love to go around for the black woman. how could she possibly assume she has so little to offer?

again, it comes down to recognition of the choices. it's easy to look in on folk and be like "you know better..." while she sitting in there looking out at you thinking "you bougie bastid don't know shit about me and mine..."

but really, where does that get us?

self-hatred is REAL folk, ESPECIALLY in those neighborhoods abandoned by white-collar and fiscally comfortable folk, leaving behind an unhealthy representation of only one sector of society, thus making the inhabitants there doubly vulnerable to messages put in on the regular.

and as for folk being mentally incapable of making decisions on their own, where do they turn to? oh yeah...the folk who don't come to their neighborhoods but wanna tell them how they're flawed and how they should fix the flaws.

it would behoove us to make sure folk are aware of the choices they DO have instead of assuming the know.

JustMeWriting said...

I second sugar's first para, but I it comes down to common sense not being very common. What's logical to one person is sooo illogical to another and not everyone knows how to pull themselves out of their mess, so therapy of some sort would surely be in order...the Bible being the best form (well to me).

dc_speaks said...

I know dozens of prostitutes and strippers. DOZENS!!! I didn't say what I said out of ignorance. I said it because I asked questions straight out to some hoes and some strippers.

There are exceptions to every situation, but on the whole---I know a lot of women that have the f*ck me/pay me..mentality.

Let's keep it one hunnit.

self haterd is real...I agree with Nikki on that but my statement is this"My point: Unless they are mentally incapable of making decisions on their own, they know exactly what they are doing and accepting their lifestyle....also just because a person perhaps was shown little love, they recognize it is so many other facets of life having nothing to do with sex, pimps, or money." and I stick by it.

being molested is not always a reason to do what we do. Just like we have self hate---we also have self love.

again...excellent comments being made here.

nikki said...

dc, how do you know they recognize the many facets? if they've never seen it, how would they know?

what we view as self-hatred they see as the status quo. while i think everyone is capable of that kind of insight, they don't recognize it until it's shown. babies don't inherently know now to talk, they learn from example. people aren't inherently hateful, it's a learned thing, just as self-love is.

and no doubt you have prostitutes or strippers tell you it's about the money. how they look telling you they do it because they don't value themselves or because they actually think they don't have a choice? what sista is gonna tell that to a dude if she don't trust him not to hurt her with that knowledge? unfortunately, as a dude, i don't see sistas in that situation giving you anything but the line you've been fed. again, this doesn't mean there aren't women like that out there, but i think my scenario is more the rule and what you speak of is the exception.

and no, molestation and rape aren't excuses, but they explain why some women value themselves so little. think about it, if a dude thinks it's alright to take despite her wishes, why shouldn't she assume what she offers isn't valuable enough to protect?

it's cool you recognize the choices, but it's highly unfair for you to assume everybody is aware of them, too, or for that matter, feels empowered enough to do something about it.

Lance said...

nice post d.c.....i wanna say what's on my heart but i get tired of women calling me a "MOTHER FUCKER!!!!" on dese blog (like my nuts!), cause i have an opinion....lol

dc_speaks said...

say whats on your mind, Lance.

it doesn't stop you any other time

nikki said...

lance. do the damn thing. i won't cuss you out, although i might end up wanting to smack you in the mouf...

Lance said...

okay, herrrrrre we go.

man loves to fuck
woman loves to fuck

what's the difference?

man wants to fuck, he pays for it = no problem.

woman wants money but gets a fuck out of it = problem?

it's all perception...
women are held on a pedestal due to their actions. oh, but a woman asking for money in exchange for sexual favors is a problem???....

but what about women who teases a man to "git sum" if he does sumpthin' for her? whose the bigger hoe?

strippers? they're grown and know what they're doing. most are supporting their families, some are college girls paying their way thru school (nowadays, the gub'ment will damn near pay your way thru college, just ask, no need to strip) or making loot for investing ventures to retire by 35. others like the thrill of being watched and mo-fos paying mad loot to see them.

some dip on both ends of the spectrum, strip for now, fuck later....what? strippers don't fiend for sex now and then?

it's interesting that the USA is one of a few countries that downplays prostitution, except nevada...but yet it's legal in most countries.

Dave said...

Isn't prostitution known as "the worlds oldest profession?"

There are a lot of great points being made here, and everyone's take has elements of what I believe is truth.

I lean towards seeing it as an addiction. Even women who are able to recognize that they have a choice, once they get used to the money.. (which has got to be more than working at the Burger King), it's hard to break away. Like anything we become addicted too, in order to quit it, life gets much harder in the short term without it. Maybe many women have tried to exercise their freedom of choice, and it was just easier to fall back into the old ways?

Lance said...

good point dave,

but if it's a addiction for her what does it makes that man who pays for it?

especially if he has a wifey at home.

dc_speaks said...

good point Lanceman

Jasmineflower said...

Wow so many opinions!!

I think i'll side with sugar and Shai.

I am nervous to comment, why?


dc_speaks said...

hi jasmine Flower....never be afraid to leave a comment.

I thank you for stopping by...please come again...soon. smile

dc_speaks said...

loved the comment too, dave and Lance.

mark said...

@ DC

First of all excellent post my clevland brotha.

I kinda agree with Niki's point, folks should never assume that people are aware of the impact of thier choices.

Also you women are marginilized for thier sexuality and have been for a long time the world. Dont think so then why do they put a hot half naked women in a car commericial and so many other advertisments that have nothing to do with sex or even couples for that matter.

Sex sales and in fact as dave said it is the oldest proffesion. Many women are taught from an early age that they can get perks/rewards/money by using thier bodies/feminity or straight out sex.

It starts when some women are young for instance if you are a poor women who grows up in the culture of black america where clothes and things like gold chains are often valued more than education and treating all folks like human biengs.

That young girl can learn very early that sitting on uncle johnies, or giving the p.e teacher a hug after school can get you a little extra loot. Dont even get me started on the grown men stopping thier cars to talk to 13 year old women. If a young girl is in a household were she is not taught to value herself and is valued by the adults raising her.

Well let me ask you this, what happens when a young lady who has been treated like sh#t gets attention from older guys who can give her money when her family dosent.

Dc you made the statement that they have choices that may be true but the choices they may be makning are often times based on a f uped world view and the way they view themselves.

For example these brothas out here slinging crack didnt come out of thier mothers saying Im going to sling crack.

But after growing up in a culture that accepts thousands of black men selling crack on the street as normal, selling crack to people then becomes normal for these young men, simply put folks always have a choice but when doing negative/or wrong things/or self destructive things become normal or acceptable(as it has with all of these young men on the streets selling crack) then people may sometimes choose self destructive things including selling the flower.